Why I believe in Pre-trib

A report from my own belief....

I looked breifly for the thread that was started so I could add to it...But I could not find it quick enough and I am short on time right now. I wanted to get this posted because it is swirling in my brain.....

Point One: Why this has to be said right now I don't know.....
Justification and Sanctification...One is upon salvation the other is what takes place during the duration of your salvation...It is how much of YOU --you allow Jesus to mold you into the likeness of HIM....This is done through trials and tribulation aka storms in your life...You can either confess and repent during the storm and seek the lesson in it for your growth spurt to occur OR you can murmur and complain and go around that mountain again....
We also have the unrepentant, the world, the unbeliever's those that chose to not recieve the Lord as their Savior, the lost...

Point Two...Concerning the rapture and Jesus coming to earth the second coming 2 events....
Stage one
1 Thess 4:16 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Take particular note of the bolded portion of scripture..."We will be caught up with the Lord.." This is one event that will first take place before the 7 years of tribulation begins, why you may ask? In 1 Thess 4:17 the text states one event that is prelude to another YET to come...Notice that the LORD has yet to come to earth, so another event will take place in the near future of this event...

Stage Two: The prelude event
Zechariah 14:4-5 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Some Ground Work:
One event happens quickly like a thief in the night and one happens when Jesus comes at the middle of the sevens spoken of in Daniel.... Daniel 9:27 says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) and is called the beast in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years), but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. The last half of the 7-year tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.

Dear Pamela, I respect your viewpoint. I will share however that I personally do not hold to the pretrib view. I do believe the "rapture" comes at the very end of things.

Either way, I am happy to say if I am wrong in my belief I believe it would not disqualify myself from a pretrib rapture becuase I believe in our beloved Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. That's the beauty of the Lord's mercy!

For some reason I thought you were mid-trib...

Your believe the rapture comes at the end of the seven?

How do you explain that God's wrath is not appointed to His people AND that the last 3 1/2 years is God's wrath upon the nation...

I believe it from the perspective offered in Exodus, when God's people were enslaved in the land of Egypt. There throughout that land it had suffered the plagues , but God's people were protected the whole time; they lived and seen the plagues striken upon the land, but they did not suffer. Only until after the very last plague were the people finally freed. In the book of Exodus I see the departure of God's people as a parallel to when the "rapture" happens.

I dunno if I am correct, but it makes sense to me when I align historical events with scriptures.

Oh, okay...

Interesting conversation. I have always been a pretrib person. I got to thinking about a couple of thing though when Bob referred to God's children being protected from the plagues. If we think about it, God does protect His children when these sort of things are to come upon a people but when God is going to destroy something then He removes His children such as Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah. So how does this fit in with the timing of the rapture. Just thinking out loud.

I have felt that the Sodom, and Gomorrah incident shows that God allows righteous people an escape before the destructions come...

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which [am but] dust and ashes: Gen 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for [lack of] five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy [it]. Gen 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do [it] for forty's sake. Gen 18:30 And he said [unto him], Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do [it], if I find thirty there. Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for twenty's sake. Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake. Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Further to that, the flood is indicative of the righteous being "lifted up" from the flood of judgement....

To my mind these instance decree the future...

One must know that does not implicate that there will be no trials to the Christian...for the tribulation hour also has ramifications of the devil's ability...1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The only wrath to be experienced by a Christian is the wrath of satan whose time is short...1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

All of this has elements of that which I expostulated in my post in the watering hole called "The Word In Context." I too am capable of error in understanding, and ability apart from any assignment by God to know truth...I have always wondered why the vaguness in an area we would deem to be (on one hand) so alive with promise and (on the other hand) so heart stopping in reluctance to outlive...or more properly, live out...surely THAT answer is assigned by God over to an area He calls..."Diligence." If a thing is not easy to be discerned it must be because the gravity of it is to guarantee that only those with a seeking heart can hope to unravel the mystery....I think that the day is fast approaching when there can be no more open ended equations and no more second guessing, for the event will be upon us...I somehow think that is how and when I will ultimately know....

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

This scripture here... 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle..... is given in the context of the chapter dealing with this subject of the second coming...how there must be a "falling away" first and a revealing of the son of perdition...2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Because of this I have rather felt we may be 3 1/2 years into the thing we call tribulation...and those first years are years of peace...for that is how he gets to be antichrist...on a platform of peace..."Peace and safety." 1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But the thing takes off big time when the antichrist begins to assert himself and declare he is God and stands in the temple to make it desolate...the thing is I referred to the Noah flood and to Sodom, but in those cases the people to be saved from the event and delivered were on the ground right up to the moment of the destruction...so I think we will have a chance to see it on CNN...from a platform of "peace" (perceived)
Clear as mud...

God set forth in the book of Leviticus festivals. These festivals represent 3 things each...

1. Historical Aspect
2. Messianic Fulfillment
3. Spiritual Application

That is a very important thing to grasp..Recalling a quote from Larry, "there are layers upon layers" These 3 things are those layers..If you can grasp these 3 things the Word begins to open up to you in a greater why...Let me give some examples...

There are 7 festvials in the Book of Leviticus, Passover, Unleaven Bread, First Fruit, Pentecost, Rosh HaShanah, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles...

Let's look at Passover, because it is the one closest to the plagues of Egypt and took place while the Israelites were still there...

Passover
Historical Aspect: Israel's deliverance out of Egyptian bondage..
Messianic Fulfillment: Death of Jesus on the cross...
Spiritual Application: Repent and trust by faith in the shed blood of Jesus.

Egypt is a "type" of world, with it's world systems with it's ruler, Pharoah a type of satan..
This world worships all kinds of gods and so did Egypt of that day. When God sent the 10 plagues down upon Egypt each plague represented a god that Egypt served at that time...These plagues did not effect the children of Israel...These plagues only affected Egypt...You can see the seperation begin to take place here. Let's look a little deeper...It's also important to note that the reasons the plagues took place was because Pharoh's heart was harden and he didn't obey God when God sent Moses to ask Pharaoh to allow the children of Israel to make a 3 day trip into the wilderness to make a sacrifice unto God their...

When Passover took place, the last most deadliest plague was about to take affect...There was one thing that saved Israel and what was that one thing? The lamb's blood that was placed over the doorposts of each door. When death came down for her final plague on Egypt, those whose first born died were those who did have the covering over the doorposts...
Pharaoh was the one who actually brought this plague down by his own words...

While death past over they were hidden in their homes protected by the blood of a lamb...Historically Israel was delievered from the bondage in Egypt by putting the blood of the lamb on the doorposts of their homes. Spiritually this is a picture of the Messiah and how those who believe in Him are delievered from the bondages of sin and the rule of satan.

Noah was protected when the ark door was closed and the rains came....

Lot and his family were removed from the city of S&G when God brought forth His judgment and destoyed the cities...

These two Old Testament figures are pictures of the end-times fulfillment. Jesus also referenced these two men in his preaching about the last days:

All these have historical, a fulfillment and spiritual applications...They are things that took place to prepare us for what is to come...The plagues represent the gods Egypt served...The festivals God set up with the Israelites starting with Passover represent the beginning to the end...

A little comparitive scripture:


Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. 18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.




1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.